Transcript | 7 : The Power of Scent with Leigh Winters | The Experiential Table Podcast

CYNTHIA SAMANIAN: You're listening to the Experiential Table episode seven.

The best experiential events engage all five senses, but more often than not, a few of these senses are simply neglected. Can you guess which ones? Well, what if I told you that you might just be ignoring the most powerful sense of them all? Today we're talking with neuroscientist Leigh Winters to learn all about the power of scent and why it just might be the most important sense for your experience.

I am so glad you're tuning in because you are in for a real treat. In this episode I'm interviewing Leigh Winters. She's -- get this -- a neuroscientist, natural beauty expert and certified aromatherapist. Oh, and not to mention she's also the founder of her own company, Leigh Winters Beauty. I've gotten to know Leigh through events in San Francisco and actually worked with her on an aromatherapy meditation for a brand activation we designed and produced. Needless to say, Leigh knows her stuff and I couldn't help but want to pick her brain about scent as it relates to experience. Now get ready for a little bit of science and a whole lot of inspiration and tips to make your events more impactful and memorable through the use of scent.

But one more thing before we dive in, I want to remind you of our free guide that's all about how to increase your event's ROI. Yup, return on investment. No matter if you're a brand marketer or experiential producer, understanding how to get the most out of your activation is crucial. The guide is called 10 Simple Ways to Maximize Event ROI and in it you'll find 10 ideas that you can implement right away. You can access the free guide at hiddenrhythm.com/roi. I'll also drop a link in the show notes. Definitely be sure to check it out before you plan your next activation. Now let's jump into our conversation with Leigh Winters and learn all about the power of scent.

Hi Leigh, welcome to the podcast!

LEIGH WINTERS: Hi, thank you so much for having me, Cynthia.

CYNTHIA: Absolutely. I am so excited to have you on. I shared a little bit earlier about how we know each other and the awesome event you were a part of, but perhaps you can give our listeners a little bit of a background on who you are.

LEIGH: Yeah, of course. Well, hello everyone. My name is Leigh Winters. I am a neuroscientist and natural and clean beauty product formulator. So I mean I really got into neuroscience sort of by way of, I wouldn't say accident, maybe more like divine sort of intervention would be probably the right term for that. I was always really drawn to the brain growing up as I got older, you know, science of course got harder in school and in research and I was like, oh is there any part of this that like really fascinates me? And it always just sort of came back to our mind, in the brain. And when I was in graduate school, I was really drawn to the psychology of human behavior. I was actually in a program that I was specifically focused on spirituality, mind, body as my area of research.

And the more I got into the weeds on everything that I was interested in which was really like yoga and meditation, how it affects our brain and behavior, things like non-local consciousness, even investigating questions like spirituality as a protective factor, I realized that I had to start getting serious about understanding the science of the brain and really being able to then understand just how we can scratch the surface of understanding some of the bigger spiritual and philosophical questions about life.

And then I really transitioned into clean beauty because you know, as much as I love studying the brain and working in a lab, which not everybody could say, I really had a penchant for olfaction, which is a study of our sense of smell. So I researched this and then I ended up going to aromatherapy training during graduate school and working in natural scent product formulation. And that was really wonderful for me because I felt like I had sort of stumbled upon my calling. It was a true marriage of passion and expertise. And I mean, I still talk about it being a privilege for me to be able to find that sweet spot, but I've always loved the innovation, the green chemistry, and then working with a lot of other women in the personal care product space.

CYNTHIA: Right, right. And so growing up, did you find yourself drawn into like Bath and Body Works and you know, the perfume section. I don't know if you remember like Victoria's Secret would have those really strong, sugary smelling sprays. Uh, were you ever intrigued by the world of scent or did that come later?

LEIGH: You know, I totally was. And I think at the time when I was younger, I didn't realize it's so much because I thought, you know, everybody's bathroom looked like a Bath and Body Works when I was a kid. But it wasn't actually really until I got to high school. I went to boarding school and my freshman year I remember I rolled up with, you know, my whole entourage and tow of perfumes and creams and lotions and they took up the entire top of my, you know, every surface in my room pretty much. It was like the whole top of my, you know, drawers were just covered with all these lotions. And my roommate, I remember being like, Oh, you know, had a toothbrush and toothpaste on top of hers. And so I think that was the first time that I realized, hey, maybe this is something deeper that I really loved that I had always been drawn to. And then as I got older and started studying a little bit more about the science behind it and then, you know, cosmetic chemistry, I was just enamored with the whole field even more.

CYNTHIA: Well she won the roommate lottery. I have to say.

LEIGH: I hope you know, if she's listening to this, she was awesome too.

CYNTHIA: It's so interesting how things like that in your childhood and even in your teenage years, you don't necessarily connect those dots. But here you are now working in labs creating amazing products, you know, combining both the neuro side and like you said, kind of the clean beauty element into what you're doing today. So, very cool how that transitioned to into where you are now. Tell us a bit about what keeps you busy today. I have seen, uh, that you're launching a new beauty company. Maybe you could tell our listeners more about that and then we'll dive into the science behind scent.

LEIGH: Yes, of course. So I am, you know, for a long time and I use long relatively, because it's only been a few years since I've been out of my graduate studies, but it feels like a long time. Working a lot with different brands. developing clean skincare scent and color cosmetic formulations. It's been great because working sort of in that consulting aspect, you're able to present these ideas that sometimes then get, you know, are on the cutting room floor basically that never see the light of day. So I'm excited to be taking some of those, you know, what I thought were great ideas that I've shared with other people and some that I've sort of kept in my back pocket thinking, you know, maybe this is, there'll be a time in, you know, down the road where there's an audience for this or a real demand for these sort of products.

And thinking about beauty and skincare and the biotech behind it all in a different way. So I'm excited to be working for myself. Um, basically it's going to be, I'm a clean beauty and skincare brand that's really formulated with the best and all natural actives and green technology. It's going to be pro-sumer driven, sustainable and based on the principles of circular economics. So, the most that I can say besides that is stay tuned. My legal counsel would probably have a heart attack more without taking some of the care of the biz end first. So that's sort of like my lesson in trademarking for all of you. Keep things under wrap, but share a little bit.

CYNTHIA: Cool. And so at the end of the show we'll definitely run down some links and places where people can find you and learn more about what you're building. You already have a beautiful website that describes everything you do today. Thanks for providing that intro. Now I'm really excited to dive into scent and you know, I come from the food world and I know as well as a lot of other people in the culinary world that scent is super important, especially when it comes to tasting food, right? Like, you know, the science behind it. I just know that, you know, you eat with your eyes but you also taste with your nose and scent is very powerful and understanding how food tastes and really, really getting that full experience. So maybe you can expand on that or what other insights do you have around how scent actually impacts us as we move through the world, whether it's through food or, uh, physical spaces, whatever it may be.

LEIGH: Yeah. So I guess I should start by saying that I think it's a real shame that scent is neglected, for lack of a better term when it comes to how marketers and brands really use it to influence our behavior as consumers. So our sense of smell by a few people is really referred to as the last branding frontier, which makes a lot of sense because when you think about it, in years past stores and brands that we all love have really just worked on sort of building these narratives that are focused on auditory. Like, okay, what music are we listening to in this store? Or at a dinner visual, like what am I seeing? And tactile experiences, you know, oh, can we touch things? Or basically focusing on all those elements of an experience and they really haven't thought about our noses.

CYNTHIA: Yeah.

LEIGH: But when you think about it, scent is actually the first and last impression that people get. And I say it's a shame because smell is really so evocative and emotional. When we smell something, we're instantly engaged. In fact, a lot of the research shows that we're actually more viscerally involved in any experience than any other sensory experience when you're talking about scent.

CYNTHIA: Wow. Even visual.

LEIGH: Even visual. It’s crazy. And I'll explain a little bit about how that happens in the brain. That has to do with a structure called the thalamus, which we'll touch on in a second when I talk more about the pathway of scent through the brain. But, yeah, basically it's the only sensory signal that goes straight to the brain and that's why scent is so profoundly important to our health and then also why it's so attached to our emotional experiences and memories.

CYNTHIA: That's so interesting because from my perspective and a lot of people who are listening, you know, we challenge ourselves to create these amazing experiences that oftentimes are visually driven, right? And there's pressure from brands and clients to really make something that visually stands out and can be shared on social. And so you think a lot around those details of how something looks, but I'm really curious to dive into more of what you're talking about around scent and how is that the strongest signal that that goes into your brain?

LEIGH: Yeah, it's actually the only sensory signal that we get from our environment that basically has a direct pathway to the brain. So basically what happens is that there's this nerve tissue that runs from the nose up to the brain and it goes straight to the amygdala, which is basically, not to simplify it too much, but the area of our brain that does sort of the rapid processing of emotional content. So before you can even recognize a smell or name it, you're thinking, ooh, like me likey or that's fricken terrible. Like we do this our noses and literally 10 milliseconds. So I think it's really interesting with what you said about the pressure that we have in this really hyper digital world. Is this going to look good on Instagram? Is this gonna look great in a Facebook ad? But at the same time when you're thinking about really drawing people into the present moment and being able to share in community and experiences, we've sort of lost this rudimentary sensual element, which is like probably our longest in evolutionary history, talking about scent.

And one way to really put that is like, think about it this way. We have at least a thousand different types of smell receptors, but only like four types of light sensors and about four receptors for touch as well. So humans are really evolutionary prime to experience scent. And it's something that I think we've really moved away from thinking about all the technology that we use and moving away from that sort of uh, a fire is burning. I smell that. And that means like I'm triggering myself for thinking like, Oh, like dangers nearby or another group of animals or herds or people nearby.

CYNTHIA: Yeah. So how does it work then when you're walking through the mall and there's, you know, someone working at the cosmetic counter and they have their perfume sample and you get a whiff of it and it reminds you of one of your really close best friends who used to wear that perfume or an ex-boyfriend who would wear that cologne, right? How does that actually trigger those memories so instantly?

LEIGH: So you know, we all know that smells make us nostalgic. Whether it's like a lover's deodorant or a body wash or even like someone you dated in high school, you could just be like, oh wow, I smelled that - that's what he or she wore. Right? The smell of cookies you baked in childhood. The minute we smell it, we instantly know like that spine tingling sensation of remembering. So it's actually really funny because the latest research that I've seen on this is that, you know, the moments, the places, the people actually flood back with about like, you know, four times the clarity when we encounter a fragrance that's associated with them, no matter how much time has gone by.

CYNTHIA: I hope that brands are listening.

LEIGH: I know right? It's so powerful. And that close relationship is really between the olfactory bulb and the brain and the amygdala. And that's probably, I mean, what scientists and myself would agree are the reasons that all odors really caused that spark of nostalgia. And how that happens in the brain is that -- it is really interesting. So I, you know, I previously sort of hinted at this idea that our olfactory pathway in the brain is different than our other senses and that's part of it too, of why senses our sense of smell is really so unique. Because when you see something, you hear it, you touch it or you taste it that sensory information is relayed to the thalamus and the thalamus is a part of the brain structure which is responsible for basically I will say movement and different other things, but it actually works as a relay station. So you're sort of like, okay, it stops here and then that that scent emotion memory sort of gets processed in different areas of the brain.

But with smell it's completely different. Scent actually bypasses the thalamus. It's like bye thalamis like we're not even gonna think about you right now and it actually goes straight to the brain's smell center, which is known as the olfactory bulb. And this olfactory bulb in the brain is directly connected to the amygdala and hippocampus, which actually explains why smell of something so immediate can actually trigger a detailed memory or intense emotion.

CYNTHIA: Wow. That is so powerful because as you just described, the science really helps us understand why scent, like you said, just has that impact, that taste, touch, all those other senses -- it takes time, right? Sometimes you have to pause and think about, oh, where have I had this? Where have I seen this before? As we think about creating experiences, whether or not you're a brand, you really want your experience to last in people's memories and you don't want it to be something that they forget the minute they walk out. So without a doubt it sounds like scent is something that all people who create experiences should really be considering. Even though it doesn't make its way on the Instagram feed. And it's not something that currently we're able to translate in the digital world.

LEIGH: Of course. Yeah. And another interesting thing is that, so not only does smell sort of go straight to the amygdala and the emotion center, but it then directly travels to the hippocampus, which is the part of our brain that's actually responsible for new memory formation. So basically, you know, I would say the number right now is about like the - I've seen some research that says about 65% of people can actually remember a memory associated with a scent. You know, after a year of even just like smelling a whiff of a fragrance or a scent that can actually trigger the recollection of a previous, you know, in store brand or product experience. So for all the brand people listening, it's like, whoa, people might be able to, and that's why, you know, we're going to talk about some of the brands that do this so well, but it's like when you think of Abercrombie and Fitch and like Hollister growing up right now, I can literally smell Hollister's August and Malia perfume right now, which was, you know, a huge part of my middle school experience. And that stays with you and it's just like this impression in your brain that is so much stronger than a lot of people think.

CYNTHIA: Oh gosh, the Abercrombie perfume. I mean, I actually never bought it. I only owned a few pieces from Abercrombie. But you're right, you're right. Like that, that smell, the fragrance from that store. And well, we'll actually dive into this in a bit because I think there are so many stores now that are not even just in retail, but in food. They're starting to use fragrance to really lure people in and to kind of have people get a taste of the experience through scent, which is really interesting.

So one of the stores that I pass by all of the time is Salt and Straw. And I don't know if it's every location that they have; I've actually walked by a few in different cities that didn't quite have this nailed, but the one on Fillmore I'm telling you, you walk by and you immediately smell waffle cones and I know they make them in their actual ice cream shop, but I swear they've got to be pumping it out onto the streets. That scent just makes you crave an ice cream cone, even if you just honestly had one already. It's incredible. So that's an example of a place where I just, I feel like they've really figured out how to get people in to that experience by, like I said, I don't know if it's just a happens to be that their waffle cone maker is right near the window, but, uh, they've definitely gotten me there. I love to hear from you, Leigh, what are some of the stores, whether it's retail or food, whatever it may be, what are some of your favorite experiences that really use scent well?

LEIGH: Yeah, and I will say this, as sort of as a caveat before diving into this is that, you know, some marketing is a huge, I mean it's a booming area. I think more brands are getting interested in doing it and more brands are learning to do it more subtly or do it well. But first things first, I think a lot of some of the brick and mortar stores that have done this really well or at least have made it part of their portfolio would be, you know, Abercrombie and Fitch, some of the L brands stores, Hugo Boss as well was one of the first fashion pioneers to even do this. And their model was really interesting because you go, Hugo Boss originally sold a lot in other department stores and they were like, well, how can we sort of rise above the fray, differentiate ourselves from the masses without, you know, having our own brick and mortars. So like how do we go about doing that?

Another area of interest that I will say for myself, which is interesting in this is that as much as I love brands getting into sort of scent marketing, at what point do we consider fragrance for your health and looking at the other aspects of making it a more enjoyable experience and also healthful experience for the people that are walking through your store. Because again, we know that a lot of perfumes and traditional scents at least that are commercially are sort of laced with some nasty toxic ingredients that aren't always great for your health. Which leads me to another example which would be Bath and Body Works, another store of the 90s that just has continued to dominate the brick and mortar world, which was so crazy to me to even read an article a few weeks ago about how well it's doing. I mean, sales are up. I saw that they're in their report from last year, 15% this year from last year. And that's crazy to me because I'm like, it's been years since I've walked into a Bath and Body Works. I walked by one the other day at the Stanford shopping center in Palo Alto and I was like immediately flooded with memories of sweet pea lotion, cucumber, melon.

All these scents from my childhood that I remember so well. I really think that and it was so funny because some of the information that I've read is that they're really carrying the entire L brands portfolio for the brick and mortar sector. And when you think about why it's because this retailer has played the power of nostalgia so well and it's all scent-based marketing, which I find amazing. I think other aromatherapy focus brands like Sage Wellness do this well. They're not as uniformed at the corporate level as some of the brands that have sort of a signature olfactory logo sort of speak like a brand that's like, hey, this is our scent, we're going to pump it in every store and we're going to really go for like that branding element of you smell this and you know it's us. But brick and mortar stores aren't, they're really the only ones that are doing this. I mean, for years, Cineplex used like a popcorn sort of scent, like almost like popcorn perfume to lure moviegoers which is crazy. Because I went to the movies this past weekend and I was like, it smells like butter popcorn and I actually got some because how can you not? I was like, and you know, for years I thought, Oh, they're just baking this popcorn and it smells naturally good. And you're like, no, it's actually an artificial fragrance that they're using.

CYNTHIA: Yeah, absolutely. But it's interesting because it doesn't seem like that if you're just the average consumer walking in, which is the idea, right? If you were bombarded by this smell and you knew it was artificially getting pumped in the air, that would perhaps change your thoughts and feelings around it. Right? But you coming in now of course, you definitely notice those things.

LEIGH: Oh, absolutely. And the subtlety is the key in a lot of, in a lot of the scent marketing world. But I would say that it's getting a little bit more out there in the open. Some of the brick and mortar brands that are particularly focused or even the pop-up experiences that have gotten so popular nowadays is that they're really trying to showcase their products in a way that put them out in the open. And it's not, you know, coming through the air ducts, the AC and heating vents and sort of this like mysterious like, oh, it just smells good in here. But saying like, Hey, here's like an aroma therapy diffuser. We're actually putting on display, Sage does this, Muji does this. Other brands, they're starting to get into showcasing their own products in a way that they're out there in the open and they're actually diffusing scents around the store.

CYNTHIA: Right. I love this Sage store and I think, of course, given the fact that so many of their products are, you know, aromatherapy based, right? So they have their essential oils and their diffusers. Clearly their product is part of the experience. But I do think that they've done a good job of not making the store feel overwhelmingly, you know, uh, you're not getting bombarded with scents. It just is a very calm place to experience different scents. So I think that's definitely a great example that's really getting it right.

So let's talk about what brands and event producers, people today who are really responsible for creating experiences for their businesses and brands. What are some things that they can take from this? Like if a brand was looking to have a pop-up and they wanted people to come in and feel energized and excited, happy, what are scents that they could use for that?

LEIGH: Oh yes. I love this question because this is where the fun happens. This is where brands get to play around with people like myself or other people in the scent world and say, Hey, how can we find different smells, whether they're seasonal or related to like a new launch product line that's going to go with the vibe and the aesthetic. So this is probably my favorite part of it for brands that are looking to really like energize customers, which is exactly what you want in retail settings, most often you want people to be shopping around moving around the floor. For energetic sense, I always sort of lean to citrusy scents, the limonene in there is really going to give you that sharp pick you up smell and those are your lemons, orange, grapefruit, lime, bergamot. And then some of the mint families, peppermint. Rosemary is super uplifting and will give you a pep in your step. I really think that eucalyptus, ginger, cedarwood, lemon grass, those are all great options for working with a mood that's really going to get people moving.

CYNTHIA: Yup. And then would you recommend like imagine you're having launch event at your store, just having a simple diffuser with some of those scents that you had mentioned. Is that, is that enough? Do they need to be in your space for an hour for it to actually affect them or how quickly does it really impact people's mood?

LEIGH: Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing about scent and how quickly does it work is that it's a little bit more of a variable equation than saying like, hey, we know the speed of light travels at this time. Mostly because smell, our noses, are basically the olfactory receptors is a form of chemo reception, which means that our nose transduce the chemical signals into neural impulses. So it's hard for us to measure scientifically and say with exact certainty, oh, like we know that the molecules are traveling at this rate through your nose getting to your brain. And the research is getting closer, but what we do know is that it takes mere milliseconds to register a smell in our brain.

CYNTHIA: Oh, I think that's, I think that's probably quick enough for most people

LEIGH: Like you don't need to be there an hour. You don't need to be sitting there for days. And the physiological cascade that then follows is if for some smells it's nearly instantaneous following that sort of neural registration, which is why scents are really a great way to quickly shift your mood. And the other thing that I'll say about that is that, one of the biggest questions that I always get is like, well hey, scent is so subjective. Like I hate the smell of orange, I hate the smell of lavender. And it's like, you know, the interesting thing about scent is that even while it is, it's like of this Catch-22 that we have in the scent formulation world. It's that our personal subjective experience of scent, like what we think smells good affects like our mood and how we remember an experience - that's true. But certain smells for instance, have, what would I would consider to be universal physiological benefits. So that even if you don't like the smell of lavender, it's still going to be a central nervous system sedative on the whole for most people, unless you're have it associated with some sort of like PTSD or like really strong memory that will override that brain registration. But for the most part, , these scents kind of have these universal physiological cascades that whether or not you love it or not, you know, lavender is still gonna make you the linalool and it is still gonna make it a central nervous system sedative. And we can say that for a lot of different essential oils or sort of chemical components of smells.

CYNTHIA: Yeah. So it sounds like your brain, for the most part, like you said, unless it's PTSD or something really triggering for the most part, your brain is like, I got this, right? We have lavender in the room. You may not like it, but the brain is going to do what it needs to do. That like sounds like it's fairly consistent across all people because it's more about, you know, what's happening in your brain versus just what you think you like. Right?

LEIGH: Of course.

CYNTHIA: Any other sense that work really well? If you know that producers are really trying to get their guests in a more chill state, really bring down any anxiety or nerves.

LEIGH: Yeah, I mean some of the greatest ones for like diffusing stress, anxiety, other CNS sort of sedatives, which is, I use that word lightly. It's not gonna knock you out and put you to sleep but give you that sort of more chill vibe are going to be, you know, the chamomile, Roman and German chamomile. Vetiver is a nice grounding, earthy scent. One of the most often used in a lot of male cologne and perfumes, but a very earthy smell that, um, people love does really well. Commercially. Ylang ylang, rose, geranium, sandalwood, frankincense, Clary Sage, Melissa. I mean the list goes on, but those are all great scents that are mostly relaxing and calming and sort of center you make you feel more present.

CYNTHIA: Right. And what scents have you found most people unanimously or the majority of people you've encountered have an aversion to or feel really repelled by?

LEIGH: You know, I, I found, uh, on the natural side of things, so without getting into using the chemical engineering to manufacturer artificial fragrances - just in their natural state. I find that a lot of people find vetiver repulsing. People are like, it smells like the dirt of the earth, I don't like this. You know, I think geranium - some people love it. It's very like floral, sort of a heavier floral scent. Other people are like, I cannot stand this. Other people are like, I could use this every day. I find that to be a very divisive one. Lavender is also pretty divisive. I mean, I love lavender. My future mother-in-law, can't even stand to be around it. But I do find the citrus scents to be very universally pleasing. You know, it's hard to find someone who doesn't love a good whiff of grapefruit. But yeah, I'm trying to think of some other scents -- peppermint is also pretty universally pleasing as well. Rosemary. I would say eucalyptus and tea tree, sometimes you get some people that are like, eh, I can either go either way.

CYNTHIA: I love eucalyptus.

LEIGH: Oh, me too. I mean, I love a lot of these, but there have been a few that have, uh, made me not wanna [inaudible] reach for them too often.

CYNTHIA: Got it. Got it. Yeah. Just like anything. So, okay. One question I have for you too is looking ahead, where do you see things going in terms of scent being used in retail or other offline experiences? What is your prediction with your crystal ball right in front of you?

LEIGH: I think as our understanding of consumer and retail behavior as it dovetails with the digital boom and space is going to be really telling in this area. For instance, I was looking at one study the other day that was like, okay, we know for a fact that the length of time a consumer stays in a store is directly proportional to the average unit of sale per customer. And there have actually been studies that show that smell can actually entice consumers to stay longer, shop longer and purchase more. So I think that as people start to understand sort of the psychology behind not only shopping and you know, human behavior, but also of really taking scent seriously, things are going to start to change. So I think two things are really going to happen here. I think one more designers are going to start designing experiences or shopping environments that use ambient scenting, which is basically the, the field terminology for like, hey, we're going to fill this space with a pleasant smell to enhance user experience or influence mood.

And then I think the second which is going to be the more wildly popular route if I'm looking into my crystal ball, is that the retail sector is really going to go gung ho into scent branding. We're going to have more brands developing signature sense that sort of like an olfactory logo that are going to be like, hey, this is us and they're going to get smarter about how they use it. And I think brands are going to get smarter about finding the right scent, open people's wallets, make them feel comfortable. And I think that that's really the way of the future. And then the other trend that I will add on top of that is that I think that people are really gonna start looking at fragrance more closely. I do this all the time because I work in this line of work obviously, but you know, it's no secret that fragrance is sort of the F word in the community.

There is a huge aversion to it, right? It's like, Oh my gosh. If you see any product with fragrance or perfume listed in the ingredients stack, like, Whoa, you better watch out because like you weren't just poisoning yourself. I mean, we've taken that and it's not necessarily fearmongering. I mean the fact of the matter is fragrance is considered a trade secret and that designation means that, you know, any personal care product or beauty company, um, they're not required to disclose those ingredients to consumers. So, you know, any synthetic or manufactured scent that you're smelling when you're at an experience - there's no telling that it's natural and it can contain, you know, dozens to thousands of the potentially harmful chemical ingredients. And, you know, we as consumers just don't know what's being circulated in the air around us and what we're breathing. So I think that there's going to be a lot more focus on the sort of clean fragrance and natural fragrance movement and then, um, consumers being a large part in driving that.

CYNTHIA: Right? Yeah. I was exposed to the F word as you call it, over the last several months, as I started to become a follower of a lot of clean beauty content creators and influencers, and I was shocked, you know, they would go to the store and say, okay, let's look at all the beauty products in this aisle. And they'd turn around the product and you'd see the list of ingredients and it would say fragrance. And they were like, nope, don't buy it. And I did not understand it. But over the last month or so, I've been reading more about it. And I'm really glad you mentioned it in this conversation because I think if there are brands out there who want to be a bit more sensitive about the scent that they associate their brand with I'd love your suggestions, but should they just use essential oils and keep it really pure?

LEIGH: You know, that's, that's a great question. And this is sort of, it depends on the brand's mission and ethos in a lot of ways. I mean, a lot of the brands that I work with are looking to be on the clean spectrum or looking at ways that we can use natural ingredients to create like a pleasant smell or brand identity. And that really comes in sort of two ways. One is thinking about like, okay, how can we go about using plants or already existing sort of natural resources. And then the other flip side of that is that these brands are also interested in sustainability and unfortunately to distill some of these essential oils is taxing on the environment and the soil. So brands are now asking themselves, well, is it really the most ethical thing to go about distilling a rose essential oil to fill up our stores across the country with this signature scent when it takes, you know, thousands of pounds of, or thousands of, you know, to even distill the rose petal and to get a little bit like a liter of the essential oil.

So I think brands are going to be looking at more sustainable solutions. For me, that's a combination of sort of what we call like green technology. Like understanding the biotech that goes into how we can use sort of the natural components of smell, to either engineered them to be more sustainable and clean, even if they're not 100% natural. So I bet that if anyone's really serious about looking into scent or going into this scent marketing world, that would be the thing that I would look into. But yeah, you know, the sad truth is that most of our beloved perfumes in the market, you know, the lotions and creams and potions, even though a lot of us have used growing up, you know, if you look at the lab testing that comes out of them, so many of them are filled with like potentially carcinogenic endocrine disruption, neurotoxins, you know, ingredients like thalates. Um, and there's just no regulation in the U.S. Market when it comes to scent formulation. So this is a huge question that brands have to ask themselves is like, you know, how do we hop on the bandwagon of getting into this sort of last frontier of branding, but how are we going to go about doing it in a way that's not harmful to the earth, not harmful to people by triggering allergies, migraines, et cetera. And then, you know, not impacting overall human health.

CYNTHIA: Right. Wow, this is so complex. There's so many layers that you could really go down and it explains why you do what you do and all the education you have and industry expertise. There's obviously a reason why you and many others are really deep into this space and you know, now you're looking to create products that really think about all of these factors.

LEIGH: Oh, of course. I mean every, every level of the brand and even the marketing and understanding of it is that, you know, for a long time, some of the, you know, even looking back like 20 years ago, our knowledge on all of you know, ingredients and formulation, how it interacts longterm with our microbiota. Even for instance, like, okay, how was our microbiome connected to what we've like the perfume that we've used every day from middle school to now. Um, but we didn't have such a deeper understanding of how everything in our environment, um, even smell pollution for instance. Um, like in urban areas, I'm not even talking about scents that, you know, we want to use to smell good, but how am would I am what I breathing in on the subway every day or on the BART in San Francisco, potentially harmful to my lungs or, you know, the rest of my body. It's something that we're really going to have to think about, especially given global climate change. And that's something that I'm really looking at in my own brand is how do I contribute to the world in a meaningful way? That's not just adding more product and junk and noise to the market, but really understanding the entire sort of circular, closed loop of beauty. And not contributing more waste to this earth.

CYNTHIA: Yeah. Wow. So thinking of like you said, scent pollution, is that what you called it?

LEIGH: Yeah.

CYNTHIA: Yeah. No, but that, I mean that's, that's something I've never thought about and it absolutely makes sense. I think in any, especially in marketing, right? When something works, then everyone jumps on the bandwagon and there's a trend and it works, then you're certainly not the only one in the space. So imagine a world where every store you walk into has some sort of scent experience, and maybe it's great, maybe it's not. What does that do to us as shoppers and consumers? That's a really, really fascinating topic and probably one that could take its own episode. So thank you for sharing all of this. One last question for you before we get down to where people can find you. We ask this question of everyone on the podcast, and it might be more obvious given that this episode was all about scent, but I'm still gonna ask it and leave it up to you to answer. So what's the single most important element of an incredible experience?

LEIGH: Scent? Duh. No, I'm totally kidding. That's actually not my answer. No, but it could be right. I think that scent is obviously super important, but the more I've been thinking about this, I think my answer would have to be the follow up. And I'll explain this. I think it's so underrated and really critical. Uh, if you have an amazing experience with an amazing sense of community, I think it's really a myth to think that it's all over when, you know, the two or so hours is up. So I've been really puzzled by this question of even asking myself how do brands go about cultivating community outside of that curated space and sustaining it? I really don't see too many people doing this well and I think that, you know, we think of experiential marketing just being in like an event setting and it's like, okay, we set up the booth, we take the booth down, but how do we go about perpetuating that feeling?

And I think that scent can be a part of that. But how you interact and follow up with the community is so important. Um, nobody's really doing this well with the exception of, I would say you Cynthia. But it's true. I mean, I really think that you made me think about that. Like I was like, wow, I've never really had to give feedback in such a thoughtful way. And then, you know, thinking about how we interact with people on social after how we stay connected, utilizing all those different channels I think is going to be what separates the good from the great.

CYNTHIA: Yeah. And there's a lot of room there and what Leigh's referring to is after our events, we send a recap email with everyone's contact information. So if you met someone at the event and you want to follow up, that's easy to do. We send photos from our professional photographer and we also send a link to an NPS survey, or actually just a more broad survey where you can give feedback and we love having that feedback loop. But to us that's like very baseline scratching the surface. So we're, we're looking for ways to do more there. And I think a lot of people listening are also trying to answer that question. So that was a real surprise response at first. I was thinking, I may not even ask her this question, it just might be too obvious, but you really took it somewhere new.

LEIGH: But don't forget the smell everyone!

CYNTHIA: Right. Of course. Of course. So where can people find you? I think everyone listening is going to be super intrigued and will want to dive more into your world.

LEIGH: So I would say I'm most active on social, on Instagram. And that's just my handle is @leighmwinters. Um, also my beauty Instagram for Leigh Winters beauty. Um, that's the handle @LeighWintersBeauty. If you guys want to stay tuned for some of the work that I've been doing in that field. Um, but yeah, also my website, email, everything is linked through Instagram. If you Google me, I'm sure things will pop up. But yes, send any questions my way - scent related, product development-related, I love to hear from people and set the record straight on all the noise that's out there, especially in the clean beauty world.

CYNTHIA: Yes. And it's definitely of the moment. And for anyone here who follows different beauty content creators and influencers on Instagram, more and more of this conversation around clean beauty is happening. And I think as marketers we need to be well-versed in that and understand not only the concerns of the people who we invite and engage at our events, but also just as a brand, like what do you stand for? And when we create an event brief, we think a lot about what your brand looks like. If it was a room, what would be the decor? And if your brand were a person, how would you describe them? But yet we don't think about what does your brand smell like? And that's just a question that we might have to throw in there. Now after this conversation,

LEIGH: Of course, and I would even say the creative process to it, it's sort of exactly what we do on the scent side is exactly what you just described. It's dissecting all the brand cues, the aesthetics, the sound, the shape, your target market. How do we translate that into a smell that will match everything that you're looking for, the energy, the experience, a physical product. And there are a lot of words that we throw behind that feminine, masculine, clean, floral. It's an extension of your brand identity and it can be done.

CYNTHIA: Yeah. Wow. Well this was incredible. I feel like we could go on for another hour. Maybe we'll have a part two. Yeah. And we can hear more about all the experiential events Leigh Winter's Beauty is having one day.

LEIGH: Of course in partnership with you guys because let's be real, we all know who does it best.

CYNTHIA: You're amazing. Thanks so much Leigh for taking the time to chat. I know I got a ton of value out of it and I'm sure our listeners did as well. We will catch up again.

LEIGH: Of course. It was my pleasure. Thank you guys for tuning in.

CYNTHIA: That is it for this week's episode. There was so much good content in here. If you're like me and you want to actually see the notes from the episode, you can head on over to our website. I'll have a link to the show notes and the transcript so you can read through the episode if that suits your style. I hope to see you all in the Facebook group. Remember it's called the experiential table, same as this podcast and it's a free community where we chat all things experiential marketing. Last but certainly not least, if you enjoyed this episode, then please be sure to give it a rating and review. It will definitely help others just like you find this podcast. Thanks again and until next week, get excited to get experiential. Talk soon.